Re: trollen braids? Posted on: 28/05/06 at 20:29:53 GMT
Thank you everyone! Sorry I started a post and then got so caught up I couldn't come back to reply sooner..
It is interesting though that those of you who have tried then have noticed that they do seem similar in structure to fingerloop braids - perhaps another to add to the 'lucet, fingerloop, 8-strand' comparisons.
I suspect that in the depths of museums there are probably many tools for which no-one knows their original purpose, and theories will change - but comparison of any extant items would be more conclusive.
Thanks again everyone. This actually began as a question I was asked on another list (so we are all involved in loads!) so these answers have been very helpful!
Re: trollen braids? Posted on: 29/05/06 at 12:39:39 GMT
This is what I can come up with so far... There is no such thing as a find of a trollen braid disk from Trelleborg. I asked Joy Boutrup who has written a lot about braids, she says there is no evidence of such a tool ever being used in Viking age or medieval Scandinavia. A round disk was found in greenland and have belonged to the Northern settlers, however this is believed to be a naviagation tool. The hair braiders? (the ones who did braids and necklaces and such of hair) used a similar tool in Europe, the earliest record is by Diderot in the 18th century. In Japan the technique has experienced a revival in the latest years and it is often mentioned to be a very old technique, however Japanese scholars believe it is more likely a technique brought to Japan from Europe with settlers in the 19th century. So all in all this is a modern tool and a modern technique. Camilla
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Jill S. Guest
Re: trollen braids? Posted on: 31/05/06 at 18:02:09 GMT
Here is part of some information that I did receive from Diane Culpin at "The Vikings" re-enactor group:
"The reason we think it was used in Viking times was that a bone wheel was found at Hedeby (Haithabu) with a small length of cord attached and 6-strand coloured cords embellishing seams on other archaeological finds."
So...not much to run with.
If anyone would like me to forward the entire document with the braiding technique, just e-mail me, and I'll pass it along. They call it a six-strand braid, since they start out with six lengths of wool, but the braiding starts in the center of each length, so it's really a twelve-strand braid as it's made up.
(To e-mail, click on the icon below that looks like an envelope.)
Jill
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Gina Administrator
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Re: trollen braids? Posted on: 01/06/06 at 10:09:00 GMT
Camilla and Jill, Thank you for calling in your contacts! I wonder if both are referring to the same finds?
[i've emailed you Jill]
So, does it seem that the tool itself is the more modern item, but that the simpler braids can be done without a tool? I guess I'll figure that out when I try one.
Re: trollen braids? Posted on: 01/06/06 at 19:35:35 GMT
Hmm I've heard of references to Trelleborg and Greenland - but now Hedeby too. I too wonder if it is the same find everybody is referring to but with a mix up on geography. I shall ask about the Hedeby finds.
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Camilla Site member
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Re: trollen braids? Posted on: 01/06/06 at 19:36:54 GMT
By the way Jill - thank you so much for the article on the "Hedeby" trollen braid
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Jill S. Guest
Re: trollen braids? Posted on: 03/06/06 at 15:20:06 GMT
You're welcome! As soon as I have some time (which won't be soon, since my 80-year-old mum is moving to live near me this week), I'm going to try that braid kumihimo-style on my maru dai. I'll need to make more bobbins first, though! I only have eight, and I'll need sixteen!
I'll post a photo when I've got something.
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Publius Site member
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Re: trollen braids? Posted on: 16/06/06 at 13:45:56 GMT
I've just joined the group. Mostly I do tablet weaving and dyeing.
I came across trollen braiding/ trolleborg weaving as a member of "The Vikings" about 5 years ago (I'm not a member now). The method I was shown uses 12 threads although I usually use 8 threads. I have one piece that I regularly use as a belt!
I read a book from by local library called "The Big Book of Braiding". Unfurtunately I can't remember the author. The book showed how various braid structures could be acheived using a maru dai, an African square card method and a Peruvian technique, using only the braiders hands, to make sling braids. All the methods were fully interchangeable. Oddly, the round wheel method was not mentioned nor was there any pattern using 12 threads.
Publius
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Jill S. Guest
Re: trollen braids? Posted on: 16/06/06 at 14:50:54 GMT
Greetings, Publius, and welcome! We have been discussing the information I received from "The Vikings" group about this type of braiding. Diane Culpin from the group was kind enough to send me her handout for how to make the braid on a "trollen wheel."
I've heard mention of the braiding called "slynging," which is apparently done with weights hanging from the threads. That might be something worth pursuing to see if it was done in period.
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Tyghra Guest
Re: trollen braids? Posted on: 17/06/06 at 03:11:56 GMT
I've not heard of 'slynging' but it sounds similar to norse whipcording which is documentable. Many people call it kamekazi braiding. The reason being that the large wooden 'bottle' shaped bobbins are swung across the to each other after the threads are tied to a roofbeam or somesuch.
Cheers Tyghra
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Jill S. Guest
Re: trollen braids? Posted on: 20/06/06 at 14:59:48 GMT
That's the same thing...during this discussion I came across a museum website that had a booklet on the slyng braid technique, and it showed a picture of bottle-shaped weights on the braiding strands.
I can't find the website now, though! I'll have to hunt for it later.
Jill
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Gina Administrator
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Re: trollen braids? Posted on: 20/06/06 at 16:58:22 GMT
and it showed a picture of bottle-shaped weights on the braiding strands.
Now this will be very interesting if you can find it again (although I know how demanding 80 year old mums can be )
Seriously, and not to hijack the thread entirely, a long-term thing I have been trying to find evidence for is the use of weights during narrow band weaving - particularly TW. Why? because, for instance, the Malatesta girdle (and others) have a velvet weave. In order to weave velvet, these warps threads need to be able to move at a different tension than the rest of the warp. But depictions of medieval tablet weaving always show the weaver working between to posts, with the warp tied tight. Actual weights which are 'period' would at least indicate a possible tie-in with techniques... at least for my theories...If you come up with anything, I'll probably start a new post!
Another interesting loom that uses a weight is shown on the Weavershand website. It's in Peter Collingwood's section and is titled 'Mystery Loom'. He drew it from a painting found in a museum on Mallorca. Here it is http://weavershand.com/peter1.html I've wanted to try this out for a while now. I found it when researching rigid heddles for a competition I was entering and although I made the heddle I'd like to try it out on this setup. It's fine for inkles using a heddle but not for a tablet set up I guess. Cheers, Tyghra
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Gina Administrator
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Re: trollen braids? Posted on: 23/06/06 at 15:39:18 GMT
Thank you!
How very interesting those weights are... they would certainly work for weaving - hmm....
I'd forgotten all about the Mystery loom over at weavershand. This loom could work with tablets, its a similar set up illustrated in Peter Collingwood's book where the weaver using his foot instead of the weight at the bottom for tensioning. If you then added addional warps which had the weights and hung loose from the far beam, you could easily (I reckon) weave velvet on this set up
Dare I ask my hubby to make me yet another loom I wonder??!!
Re: trollen braids? Posted on: 24/06/06 at 03:30:45 GMT
Gina, It's worth a try! We have a semi-serious competition going over here. She who dies with the most looms, wins!
I'm narrowly in the lead. It's led to some interesting discussions on just what constitutes a loom and what is weaving vs braiding etc so although it's all in jest, it's also been informative.
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